Live-blogging Mark Driscoll and Bill Hybels

UPDATE: I just closed the comments on this because it swelled up into something much larger than what actually happened. Todd Rhoades has the skinny so go check out his blog post and comment there if you like.

Final Session. Intro by Mark Driscoll from Mars Hill Church in Seattle, speaking through a pre-made video. Very cool graphics, nicely done. And Mark is an excellent communicator - Mark gives 3 points. The man, the mission, the message,.

[update: this video is now available on youtube].

1. The man. Selection of the man - who fights like a good soldier. God needs competent men who will gather others.
2. The mission. What mission is that man on? A man can get sidetracked by civilian affairs. Jesus is not a gay hippie in a dress.
60% of pastors [edit: attenders - sorry - i corrected this but it didnt come out] are female but if you want to win the war you need to get the men. Force men to become the kind of men they need to come.
Misison is to get the men because if you win the men you win the war.
3. The message. The one thing that keeps the man straight and keeps the mission on progress.

[TSK response: Although i really like Mark, and appreciate the fact that this conference was composed of many different streams, I felt myself cringing during his speech and wondering what the ladies were thinking and feeling duringk. The other thing was that Mark's talk seemed to clash with the reproduction/multiplication/outward-releasing flow of this conference.]

Bill Hybels introduced and gets standing ovation. He looks older with his grey hair, and wiser. I saw him last in Australia in 1993 when his team came downunder.

Bill says:
"After that video i would like to acknowledge that there are women in this room and they have spiritual gifts.
[applause and yelling]
Bill's community - all gifts used.

Technorati Tags: bill hybels, church planting, exponential, mark driscoll

There was once a church where people stood in awe, burned with passion to take the message of the transforming love of Christ to the world, and met in an upper room and prayed for courage to spread their faith.
He wanted to give his dream a SHOT, by faith, and see where it would go.
Give himself to a grander dream.
Bill had to sign off on stock options and all kinds of things in order to develop one of these faith commuities. Then he started a youth group, sold tomatoes door to door to get money to rent a theater.
Oct 12, 1975 held first little service in a movie theater.
What if he would have given his life to a lesser dream?
Know the difference between a hankering and a holy discontent.

[ . . . have to go and meet someone. cant blog this anymore but i iwill link to others who are blogging it or recording it later on]

[ok - cant find jim . . . back to blogging Bill Hybels]

cana wedding example, ten lepers . .. if you walk by sight you'll quit! but if you walk by faith . .. 6+ years in a movie theater. horror movies the night before. vomit all over the floor that they had to clean up at 4am. i left a multimillion dollar family company to clean up someone's vomit. they found some land and trusted that between here and there, God would show up.
One guy wrote a huge check and they said they would never forget that day when God provided.

[TSK response: i wonder if that thrill of raising money, buying more land or bigger buildings, is somewhat addictive and perhaps the default mode for mega churches reacting to change or challenge. Good be good if appropriate or could be a trap if God want something other than have the church get bigger and bigger. Still, Bill Hybels and Willow Creek is a huge part of 20th Century church history in America and the standing ovation was appropriate. This church broke new ground for all of us and helped us all.]

Big finish:
Ask God to help you finish with a few of the people with whom you started!
[Good word]
We wanted to do life deeply together, rather than do a professional looking service. There was some naivete there. Some moral errors - devastating!

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More on this at Mark Driscoll and Paris Hilton and banned video rumors

[related: Is the blogosphere ready for Mark Driscoll? Mark Driscoll: The Skinny

Comments

[emma]

I'm slightly cringing at Driscoll's words... I have heard different bits and pieces from/about him and most seem to have a slight (or not-so-slight) male-dominance bias. Which makes me as a woman feel slighted. HOWEVER, I'd like to acknowledge that pastors are called to give hard words sometimes... but I don't think this is the case here.

As for Hybels, I was at Willow in the summer for the Leadership Summit, and so appreciated everything I learnt there. I still struggle with the wealth of a place like that, I don't know what to do with it. But the reality is they are reaching people for Jesus... which is a good thing.

[Larry]

Bill Hybels said: "After that video i would like to acknowledge that there are women in this room and they have spiritual gifts.

Do you really think Driscoll disagrees with that? I don't. I think it is shameful for egalitarians to pretend that complementarians deny that women have spiritual gifts. Complementarians believe that women have spiritual gifts and should use them in the service of the body. Complementarians reject the idea that God has gifted and called women to do something that he specifically forbade in His Word.

But I wish we could at least be honest with others positions. Don't pretend that complementarians believe that women do not have spiritual gifts.

[Matt Stephens]

People who spew and buy into raw rhetoric simply reveal their true colors.

[Denny Sullivan]

Bill Hybels was very wrong in how he dealt with his disagreement of the way Driscoll views the role of women. Driscoll was on VIDEO and was not even in the same state. Hybel's comment was more like a junior high girl than that of a man of his stature.

Hybels came out saying, "I want to set the record straight after this eight minute video..." This was not his venue or his house. He was a guest and it created a problem for those who were in charge of the conference. It dissed another guest (video) speaker.

Hybels hurt the unity of the body and did not demonstrate the prayer of Jesus in John 17. This was a reprehensible display of pride and arrogance on Bill's part.

[chad]

but someone finally said it.....for ages Driscoll has said things like this, but for the most part no one really ever replies to him. Its like the elephant in the room. After the comments dealing with the Ted Haggard situation, I thought that it may finally have changed. While Bill Hybels may have not done this in the most tactful way, he admitted to the issue that everyone knows is out there.

[Joel Johns]

"60% of pastors are female but if you want to win the war you need to get the men. Force men to become the kind of men they need to come."

I could be wrong, but didn't Driscoll say that 60% of church atendees are women, not pastors? This misunderstanding may be why so many took Driscoll's comments as an affront. Just wondering.

[graham]

60% of Pastors are female? Where?

Denny, maybe female listeners would have felt that Driscoll was hurting the unity of the Body.

[Mak]

*sigh* I guess I shouldn't have hoped for better

[Matt Shedden]

I cannot believe the number of people who think Bill is out of context in his comments, when Mark is failing to acknowledge a whole percentage of people in the room. This is not an egalitarian/complementarian issue, but an issue of basic respect for the other that Mark continues to lack. You want to talk about John 17 read Mark's comments on the Episcopal church, which regardless of what you think of the EC he fails to acknowledge those are faithful in those churches. Lets get off Bill's case and Mark's for a change.

[Adam]

1. I'm tired of war rhetoric.
2. I'm tired of alliteration, it immediately turns me off.
3. I'm tired of women being treated as less than equal and simply baby making tools.
(3a. Not that baby making is wrong, of course.)
4. "Jesus is not a gay hippie in a dress." What does that mean?

[tallskinnykiwi]

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh oooohhhhhhhh yeeeaaaaahhhhhhh!@!!!!1!

after a month without my computer, it just feels REAALLY GREAT to be blogging again and to have all you lovely people back on my blog to read my rough notes from the stuff i see.

welcome back everyone

and God BLESS you, everyone!

[tallskinnykiwi]

oh . sorry about the mistake. he probably did say "attenders" so i changed that. thanks for the correction. hard to listen and type at the same time.

and great to see all the love floating around.

[edward pillar]

Hmmm - sadly, every time I read about mark Driscoll - its the same old thing conservative, bashing-something, anti-women blurb...

Why do people listen to this guy?
Why do people within the 'Emerging Church' rate him apparently so highly?
If Mark Driscoll is a spokesman for the Emerging Church - then God, help us!

I am saddened by what i read here and elsewhere and personally i would rather have the gracious wisdom of Bill Hybels - even if he isn't kosher as far as the Emerging Church is concerned.

[Auttie]

You know, I am not even quite sure I landed on this blog but one thing I know for sure is If a man really believes that women are equal, then they do not deliver speeches like mark Driscols. Sure in some disclaimer he may say women are equal but as humanity we don't merely say our beliefs, we embody them. Mark driscol embodies his fears not the gospel.

[Jon Hallewell]

Somehow this post made me think about deep ecclesiology. Is it really that there's so much that its easy to cringe at, all around us in all forms of church - but to appreciate that in all forms there are good & bad actions, attitudes, motivations etc. It's really about grace, which we all need. BUT we must be able to be truthful about what we perceive, to help us get nearer to truth.

PS I would be really interested to hear what Bill Hybels has to say to the Emerging Missional Church.

[lyn]

Andrew,

I'm so disppointed with Mark's attitude, and also with some of the comments that have appeared below. Bill had to say something, he couldn't ignore the situation. I feel for all of the women who were at the conference. I'm so fed up with this conservative opinion, which quite frankly, shouldn't exist in the 21st century.

[Mak]

john - truly deep ecclesiology acknowledges and addresses the differences especially when they make disparaging comments about entire groups of people that lack mercy and justice.

We encourage honesty AND respect in our group and we reject injustice and bigoted comments. If Mark were in our group, we would have all intently listened and respected that he shared himself honestly but people would have spoken up in defense of women and would have confronted the gay hippie comment...esp. theologically and in the context of our community.

and likely, someone would have honestly asked him his feelings about gay men and where his comments are stemming from. And what he means by "hippie" and who he is referring to and why is being a "hippie" wrong or in any way inconsistent with Jesus and his message. And why he feels the need to put down certain groups of people in order to encourage men to rise up in leadership.

I really sense that Mark was using his moment to promote his "male only leadership agenda" which was completely inappropriate.

We do not do well living in a place of tension if we just smile and nod in the name of "deep ecclesiology".

frankly, I'm finding that whole phrase meaningless and tiresome in the blog world lately. I wouldn't expect Mark to just smile and nod at me, I would expect a little "push back".

[Mak]

I too am curious as to why people keep giving Mark a platform. He always says the same thing and it always just pisses people off. When is someone going to say "ya know, it's probably not a good idea to have Mark speak, God bless him but he just doesn't seem to be able to restrain himself"

[Mak]

{C}Good be good if appropriate or could be a trap if God want something other than have the church get bigger and bigger.

Andrew - I thought this was good. The comment about raising money and all that being addictive. It's sort of like the issue of mega church pastors having CEO personalities ... which really makes sense. So, as you said, could be good, could be bad...all depends on if it's what God wants.

[Big Chris]

People keep giving Driscoll a platform because they want to hear what he is saying. He isn't missing the ability "to be able to restrain himself" - he says this clearly, intentionally, and unapologetically. No restraint issue involved there. To think otherwise is simply silly.

Big Chris

[tom]

Why are we calling Driscoll's comments offensive? He was invited to speak on what he believes is most important for planting a church (I think he has some credentials to speak on this topic) and just because his view's differ from yours he has to be lampooned? I do not get it. He did not say anything offensive about women in the talk. All he did was talk about what Men need to do for the church to thrive.

And is it is misleading for Bill to claim or imply that Driscoll believes women do not have gifts, that is not what his talk was about or even remotely speaking to. He believes the leading of the church is a matter of office but he did not say anything about it being an issue of gifts. C'mon this is just insane!! It is not like Mark's view is that fringe, last time I checked it was the majority in the evangelical world. I say all this as an egalitarian, but it seems many of us are blinded with emotion on this issue and have lost the ability to be charitable to others we theologically disagree with. If Bill has/had an issue with Mark's message he should have taken it up with him personally, not in front of a crowd. I would have been just as offended (and so would most egalitarians) if Bill spoke and then Driscoll came up next at a conference, and took a swipe at it. Let be fair, brothers and sisters.

[tallskinnykiwi]

hey everyone, appreciate the comments but it wasnt really a big deal. Bill said a few sentences regarding women and then gave his excellent message for about [probably] half an hour or more.

time to move on?

[Steve Lavey]

In the video, Mark Driscoll said that 60% of all church ATTENDERS are guys (not pastors), which comes from Barna's research. He was stating a fact that churches generally are not inviting places to guys.

In no way do I believe that he said women don't have spiritual gifts, or have a place of service in any church. It is this kind of sloppy statements that get all these other folks fired up. Let's have everyone try to be precise when we quote somebody so we don't tear down people who love Jesus and are trying to reach others with the love of Jesus.

[Mak]

andrew - this is your blog, I'll let it go...but to some of us it is a big deal.

[Derek]

Well said, Tom and Steve, well said. Something I found funny is how Stetzer the day before at the conference had got done saying that one of the ways you can tell someone is putting the Gospel on the backburner is that they demean others who proclaim the Gospel. And then the sarcastic comment in response to the video was made. I instantly lost all respect for Pastor Hybels. I thank God for what he's doing, but I no longer respect him as a leader like I did before.