Live-blogging Mark Driscoll and Bill Hybels

UPDATE: I just closed the comments on this because it swelled up into something much larger than what actually happened. Todd Rhoades has the skinny so go check out his blog post and comment there if you like.

Final Session. Intro by Mark Driscoll from Mars Hill Church in Seattle, speaking through a pre-made video. Very cool graphics, nicely done. And Mark is an excellent communicator - Mark gives 3 points. The man, the mission, the message,.

[update: this video is now available on youtube].

1. The man. Selection of the man - who fights like a good soldier. God needs competent men who will gather others.
2. The mission. What mission is that man on? A man can get sidetracked by civilian affairs. Jesus is not a gay hippie in a dress.
60% of pastors [edit: attenders - sorry - i corrected this but it didnt come out] are female but if you want to win the war you need to get the men. Force men to become the kind of men they need to come.
Misison is to get the men because if you win the men you win the war.
3. The message. The one thing that keeps the man straight and keeps the mission on progress.

[TSK response: Although i really like Mark, and appreciate the fact that this conference was composed of many different streams, I felt myself cringing during his speech and wondering what the ladies were thinking and feeling duringk. The other thing was that Mark's talk seemed to clash with the reproduction/multiplication/outward-releasing flow of this conference.]

Bill Hybels introduced and gets standing ovation. He looks older with his grey hair, and wiser. I saw him last in Australia in 1993 when his team came downunder.

Bill says:
"After that video i would like to acknowledge that there are women in this room and they have spiritual gifts.
[applause and yelling]
Bill's community - all gifts used.

Technorati Tags: bill hybels, church planting, exponential, mark driscoll

There was once a church where people stood in awe, burned with passion to take the message of the transforming love of Christ to the world, and met in an upper room and prayed for courage to spread their faith.
He wanted to give his dream a SHOT, by faith, and see where it would go.
Give himself to a grander dream.
Bill had to sign off on stock options and all kinds of things in order to develop one of these faith commuities. Then he started a youth group, sold tomatoes door to door to get money to rent a theater.
Oct 12, 1975 held first little service in a movie theater.
What if he would have given his life to a lesser dream?
Know the difference between a hankering and a holy discontent.

[ . . . have to go and meet someone. cant blog this anymore but i iwill link to others who are blogging it or recording it later on]

[ok - cant find jim . . . back to blogging Bill Hybels]

cana wedding example, ten lepers . .. if you walk by sight you'll quit! but if you walk by faith . .. 6+ years in a movie theater. horror movies the night before. vomit all over the floor that they had to clean up at 4am. i left a multimillion dollar family company to clean up someone's vomit. they found some land and trusted that between here and there, God would show up.
One guy wrote a huge check and they said they would never forget that day when God provided.

[TSK response: i wonder if that thrill of raising money, buying more land or bigger buildings, is somewhat addictive and perhaps the default mode for mega churches reacting to change or challenge. Good be good if appropriate or could be a trap if God want something other than have the church get bigger and bigger. Still, Bill Hybels and Willow Creek is a huge part of 20th Century church history in America and the standing ovation was appropriate. This church broke new ground for all of us and helped us all.]

Big finish:
Ask God to help you finish with a few of the people with whom you started!
[Good word]
We wanted to do life deeply together, rather than do a professional looking service. There was some naivete there. Some moral errors - devastating!

--------------------------------------------------------

More on this at Mark Driscoll and Paris Hilton and banned video rumors

[related: Is the blogosphere ready for Mark Driscoll? Mark Driscoll: The Skinny

Comments

[andrew]

hey - my edited version where i changed "pastors" to "attenders" ended up in a separate post. sorry for the confusion.

I deleted that post, which had only one comment on it, from Justin. I am pasting his comment here:

Justin Powell
justin

Comment:

thanks for posting this Andrew...I love the big finish...I think that it brings validity to our faith when relationships last beyond and beside 'the mission'...cause aren't relationships kinda the mission anyway? thanks again

[andrew]

mak, i am not saying its not a big deal. i think the issue IS a big deal and important enough to mention it here.

but it was not a big deal in the context of Hybel's speech so to make this much of it is not being true to what actually happened.

maybe i will do another post on the subject

[Larry]

So Andrew, do you believe that Driscoll thinks women have no spiritual gifts?

You know the guy. What do you think he believes about that?

[TSK: hi larry. NO, I dont believe he thinks that. and his view of women is consistent with many reformed churches. there will always be disagreement on this issue but lets be gracious with each other as we listen and learn]

[nathan]

Mark Driscoll is a big boy and has built his public rep on flaming other people. He needs to take his lumps. (He's great at giving them.)

So when it comes to Bill Hybels stating his view everyone can just take a deep breath and give it a rest.

He didn't call names or imply that Driscoll or "complementarians" in general are neanderthals or trying to compensate for their size anxiety. It wasn't unfair, meanspirited or anything close to it. It wasn't a full blown attack on all complementarians. Handle it for crying out loud.

Driscoll, on the other hand, is well known for name calling and attacking the masculinity of any male pastor that doesn't act like he does or agree with his views. (i.e. chickified, limp wristed, and worse.)

I believe in being gracious, but sometimes the overwrought reactions just need to stop.

Breath.
Really listen to what Hybels said.
And have the maturity to not read into it as a backhanded "attack" on your hero or all complementarians.
He just acknowledged the women present for their gifts.
The statement was about the women in the room, not the full implications of Marky's possible views.

Good grief.

Do you see what the tone and tack of people like Mark Driscoll do? It undermines people's ability to just believe the best and supports an adversarial environment. It's not wrong to be a complementarian. It IS wrong to elevate a secondary issue of practice to a first order litmus test of "true orthodoxy".

that's the problem with Driscoll, not the substance of his views.
Even as an egalitarian I believe that.

[Dave]

I guess Paul was a bigot with a male only leadership agenda. You people should be proud of yourselves....your sooo progressive.

[David Drake]

I was there and in my opinion Bill was way out of line. I do not remember a single person who disagrees with female eldership standing up and insulting all of the speaker who spoke again and again of "women" church planters. I was with friends who are not all down with Mark and they too were offended by what Bill said, it was rude and wrong, not because of what Bill believes but because of how he acted. It's ok to disagree but it is wrong to publicly insult someone.

[brad]

I’ve been following this thread for a few days, and see a couple of deeper issues here that find just as disturbing about the current realities of Body-life, as the surface events of what happened in Orlando.

Yes, there was conflict caused by the presentations of Mark Driscoll and Bill Hybels, and yes, that was amplified by the conflict caused by people's opinions about the presentations of Mark Driscoll and Bill Hybels--whether we were present or not.

What I find more bothersome, actually, is our apparent lack of consideration or understanding about accountability in the Body regarding public interactions. Are there not New Testament passages that talk about correcting leaders publicly when they have sinned publicly? (Of course, some of the commenters on this thread think one did, some think the other did, some think both, perhaps some think neither. Actually, I think the event organizers hold some significant accountability for what ended up happening in public, but I’ll get to that shortly.) What about when someone misapplies Scripture publicly in their teaching? Or when someone gives a false or faulty "prophetic" word? What do the Scriptures require, not Miss Manners, not Roberts Rules of Order, not Guerilla Debate Tactics 101 …

If we are going to elevate some local leaders to the status of *super-leader superstars* and invite them to national- and international-level platforms, then everyone involved should to be aware that there needs to be *super-accountability.* Sadly, I'm not sure anyone’s reputation survived unsullied in Orlando, and the Body-life results look like yet another messy insiders-only theo-food fight.

So--behind the scenes before what happened ever took place--was there discussion by the event organizers about such possibilities for public conflict? Were there considerations of the "hidden curriculum" that is shouted from decisions that have public implications? For instance, what are the messages sent by having only one woman on the featured speaker list at this same event? Are those messages changed by apparently having speakers who are representatives of different camps on gender issues? Did the event organizers preview the video Mark submitted and consider the potential consequences beforehand of their showing it, or of who followed the video in the line-up? Have the organizers of this event made any public statement about what happened, and how it may affect any future such events they co-partner?

I also find it bothersome that we don’t seem to have a practical understanding about grace and forbearance for one another as members of the same spiritual family. Yes, we need to let the various streams in the delta of the Kingdom flow where God allows them to go. And yes, it’s not really our job to aggressively divert other disciples into our stream. But perhaps this event shows us we need to have more foresight in our planning so that people from one stream’s tribe are not rubbing river sand and saltwater into the raw wounds of another stream’s tribe, and vice versa.

[andrew jones]

Brad - good point about the number of women vs. men presenters - although I didnt hear anyone complain about that.

Rather, the conference was excellent and we were all overwhelmed by the scope of ministries and the great time we were having.

Quick word in favor of Mark Driscoll and David Nicolas (Acts 29 at the beginning). I was a part of the very first Acts 29 events and I remember that the main speaker for this event was Sally Morgenthaller.

So does Mark believe women have spiritual gifts of teaching and can they exercise them? Well, it appeared that he did back then.

another thing. this whole dichotomy of complementarianism and egalitarianism is so simplistic and dumbed down. I have never placed myself in either of those categories and dont intend to.

Churches that have women in leadership and churches that will never have women in leadership are BOTH invited to participate with God in his mission among the emerging culture and I end up working alongside BOTH.

And MOST new emerging communities i come across have probably never heard those expressions before.

"what's wrong with the world, mama?
people livin like they ain't got no mamas
I think the whole world's addicted to the trauma
only attracted to the things that'll bring the drama

........

the truth is kept secret, and swept under the rug
if you never know truth, then you never know love
where's the love ya'll? (i don't know)

where's the truth ya'll? (i don't know)
and where's the love ya'll? "

Where is the Love?, Black Eyed Peas

[LayGuy]

Political correctness bugs me to no end. The organisers asked Mark to do this video. He did and shipped heaps of them out.

After the comments by Hybel, these video's were not given out. Why? Cause Hybel bagged Driscoll publicly for the content.

Why? Cause Driscoll doesn't endorse female Eldership. It's biblical! It's fact. Those with a problem with this fact don't have an issue with Driscoll. They have an issue with the Spirit.

I am not against females in leadership roles. But the bible clearly says that male eldership is the norm.

[Stew]

After watching the video I would have thought I was at a male only gathering like a men's Wild at Heart event. Take the correction of Bill, who has the spiritual authority, and move on.

[Josh]

I have read through every comment on this particular thread and let me just say, "I was there." Maybe years later it will be like being at the Super bowl, or some great Presidential moment. So never forget, "I was there."

Obviously, we all have a view, we all have an opinion about Driscoll, Hybels and now we feel called and compelled, to fight for our moral, ethical and eccliastical position on women in leadership, etc. etc. Did I mention, "I was there, In Orlando."

It kills me how much we build up issues and events like these and love to see our leaders, Hybels, Driscoll, (insert name here) stand up and give an awe inspiring message. We follow passiontely the gurus. Even when they rail other people. We then think we are of course... right, taking the moral high ground. The reason we build this up? We love the superstar mega pastors. We adore them, we want to be like them. We idealize their ministry and want a bigger, better church. We have conferences that build up our love of these mega monster ministries. (By the way, I was there.) We love seeing the best videos, the latest tecnology, the sponsor boxing matches that match sponsor against sponsor... "Bob Logan's coachnet vs. churchplanters.com." Yes is was goofy and funny, but wasn't that piece ironic? Didn't that piece have a disturbing element of truth. (I was there)

Now, just to prove my own humanity and fallenness (I was there) let me share MY OPINION on the conference...

#1 Who is to blame? Us, you and me. We bought tickets, we encouraged this whole thing, this me vs. you. This love for disagreement. So, I am sorry for buying a ticket. Look at all the Blogging hours wasted on this stupid topic when we could have been actually doing what Cordeiro said. My question to you is, Did you journal, listen to the Spirit today? Or is this your substitution for hearing from God? (I was there)

#2 But really, Playing that video followed by Hybels was clearly a mistake. Blame the conference organizers. There were probably a lot of Acts 29 planters there, and we wanted to keep them interested, so we put their guru's video up there.

#3 Best moments: When Stetzer said, all this stuff the speakers are saying, it won't happen to you! Why do we have speakers? Becuase they have huge churches. Don't expect it to happen to you. (Priceless comments)

#4 Most impacting moment / Best quote: Cordeiro when he told the Chinese house church Christ followers, "I cannot pray that you will become like us, but I will pray that we will become like you."

Wake up church planters! Stop arguing about petty little garbage, give the blogs a rest and go plant your church. It is where God has you for this season, it is your moment to change the face of your community. This blog and others? Well, these won't change much. I have a blog (guilty). Stop the feeding frenzy. Get to work. Which reminds me, I have to go and work on the completion of my church plant plan. (Did I mention, I was there?)

[brad]

Well said on many fronts, Josh.

I was not at the Orlando event, but had kind of wanted to be there -- not to experience the disunity, because that drives me nuts, but to be with friends who pour their hearts and lives into church planting.

I didn't intend my earlier comments to be a slam against the organizers of this event, and I hope they weren’t interpreted that way. As one with over 30 years experience of occasional conference organizing, it’s just that I've seen some of the unexpected and (often) uncontrollable things that can sink the ship. And I have done what I can to pre-empt the problems. It doesn’t always work, but I felt it was my responsible to exercise as much “strategic foresight” as possible.

Equipping and networking events can be valuable. However, these days we have several critical issues of DIFFERENCES -- gender and leadership being one of them -- that are almost always present, and always have the potential for creating DIVISION when we attempt to create a broadband gathering on some area of similarity, like church planting.

I agree that some of the blogging (both by those who were there and those who weren't) qualifies as petty stuff. However, there are deeper paradigm issues that are critical -- not just in the theological views themselves, but in how we interact about those views. It's the mode of interaction that is fragmenting us, and I think we need to address that.

A key difficulty is that distinctives like those that appeared in Orlando are interwoven throughout our paradigms. They shade EVERYTHING else we think and do--worldview, cultural contextualization, discipleship strategies, leadership structures, volunteer ministry parameters, etc. We cannot simply leave them at the front door; they are integrated throughout our theologies-praxologies-methodologies.

Since we can't "just get over it," we've got to find a way to get through this, or the rancor will kill our reachability as a movement. Maybe we have to have a “code of conduct” for presenters and attenders. Or, if we just can’t play nice together, maybe we don’t hold broadband events anymore, but just stick with all-complementarians-here or all-egalitarians-there events. (My view doesn’t fit neatly into either camp, frankly.) That’s why I think a bit more accountability has to go to the organizers to set the ground rules, communicate the ground rules, and call to account those who present or attend but refuse to adhere.

I hope we can figure out how to act with graciousness that allows one another to hold to and present whatever our current views. There is so much forward momentum for the Kingdom right now! But if we can’t, then aren’t we doing pretty much the same thing as the Jews were doing to the gentiles in the early church – attempting to force them to become Jews/complementarians/egalitarians first before they could become Christians/valid churchplanters?

[Makeesha]

I'm disappointed by this whole discussion. I guess I had unrealistic expectations of the readership here.

my final word, I couldn't care less if Driscoll has women in leadership in his church, it affects me not one iota. I couldn't care less how his marriage works. I have no doubt he loves God and loves the church and aside from his machismo, I'm sure he's a decent fellow.

What bothers me about him the most is his constant reference to Jesus not being a gay hippie and then in the same "speech" referencing gender. Me thinks he protests too much.

The fact that he keeps going back to these issues makes me concerned that there needs to be a confrontation PUBLICLY about his PUBLIC comments that are completely out of character with God's heart and unnecessary to boot.

I also couldn't care less what Hybels said and as I wasn't there, I can't comment on the conference. But I *can* comment on Driscoll's consistently poor behavior in public settings and the references he makes to "limp wristed males" and "left wing gay hippies" and on and on and on....

I'm also personally offended when MEN think that this sort of thing doesn't matter. esp. when men who fit Driscoll's definition of a man think it doesn't matter. Of course you don't think it matters, you're already "in" in mark's world.

more and more i'm just finding mark to be an embarrassment to Christianity, I really don't personally care what he says about me and my role.

I also don't find the complementarian and egalitarian discussion simplistic and frankly, I'm a bit surprised at your response Andrew. I'm glad you don't find it necessary to categorize yourself but some of us don't have that luxury and some of us *do* believe God desires male and female relationships to be equal and not male dominated.

and if Driscoll has a "right" to spout off in public then so does Hybel have the "right" to correct him in public.

[jimmy smuda]

you know what's funny? this was supposed to be a leadership conference, and there must be 50 or so posts on here about 2 "boys" getting into a catfight.
dont' get me wrong. i'm a big hybles fan. have been for years. but it was a bit tacky.
the biggest issue here is we've never learned to agree to dissagree. so what, driscoll hates women. so what hybles hates men! who freaking CARES!

this is like the church's version of DONALD TRUMP VS. ROSIE O'DONNEL.
i would have much rathered heard more about the leadership principles, than the classic "OOHHHH, THE CHURCH STINKS, WERE ALL GOING TO BE EXTINCT IN 10 MINUTES" video's,
or the
LOOK AT US, WE WERE A POOR CHURCH, NOW WERE HUGE, WITH TREE'S speeches.

we get all that. GIVE ME FOOD!

i mean it would have been better to hear about that, or i don't know?????
SOULD BEING WON?

but please, please please, we must fill our our version of ENQUIRER, with this VERY URGENT WRITTINGS.

come on christian!!!!!!!!!!!

[jimmy smuda]

you know what's funny? this was supposed to be a leadership conference, and there must be 50 or so posts on here about 2 "boys" getting into a catfight.
dont' get me wrong. i'm a big hybles fan. have been for years. but it was a bit tacky.
the biggest issue here is we've never learned to agree to dissagree. so what, driscoll hates women. so what hybles hates men! who freaking CARES!

this is like the church's version of DONALD TRUMP VS. ROSIE O'DONNEL.
i would have much rathered heard more about the leadership principles, than the classic "OOHHHH, THE CHURCH STINKS, WERE ALL GOING TO BE EXTINCT IN 10 MINUTES" video's,
or the
LOOK AT US, WE WERE A POOR CHURCH, NOW WERE HUGE, WITH TREE'S speeches.

we get all that. GIVE ME FOOD!

i mean it would have been better to hear about that, or i don't know?????
SOULD BEING WON?

but please, please please, we must fill our our version of ENQUIRER, with this VERY URGENT WRITTINGS.

come on christian!!!!!!!!!!!

[jimmy smuda]

you know what's funny? this was supposed to be a leadership conference, and there must be 50 or so posts on here about 2 "boys" getting into a catfight.
dont' get me wrong. i'm a big hybles fan. have been for years. but it was a bit tacky.
the biggest issue here is we've never learned to agree to dissagree. so what, driscoll hates women. so what hybles hates men! who freaking CARES!

this is like the church's version of DONALD TRUMP VS. ROSIE O'DONNEL.
i would have much rathered heard more about the leadership principles, than the classic "OOHHHH, THE CHURCH STINKS, WERE ALL GOING TO BE EXTINCT IN 10 MINUTES" video's,
or the
LOOK AT US, WE WERE A POOR CHURCH, NOW WERE HUGE, WITH TREE'S speeches.

we get all that. GIVE ME FOOD!

i mean it would have been better to hear about that, or i don't know?????
SOULD BEING WON?

but please, please please, we must fill our our version of ENQUIRER, with this VERY URGENT WRITTINGS.

come on christian!!!!!!!!!!!

[grace]

Having read several first-hand reports and comments from people who were there, they have said that Bill Hybel's comments were NOT a rebuke, but rather an acknowledgement of the women in the room (which seems like a courteous gesture). It was Mark's blog post which said that Bill criticized him and this claim which is being spread like wildfire through the blogosphere.

Several people in attendance have also said that the videos were available. Quoting one:

"I was there… They gave me three copies of the video as I left the auditorium. My staff got the same."

Again, it was Mark's blog post which is claiming that they were banned. The majority of the misinformation and controversy being spread concerning this is from Mark's post about it, and he wasn't there.

I am amazed at the level of controversy being created from distorted information.

[andrew jones]

Thanks Grace. I will let you have the final word here because i am CLOSING UP these comments.

If you want to go further, go to Todd, Rhoades blog" and leave your comment there.